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Post by Hoist on Aug 1, 2011 13:24:17 GMT -5
To kick start TTF's 4 for 4, we're going to discuss the merits and bad elements that was Beast Machines, Was it really that bad?
Beast Machines followed the story on from the Beast Wars series, where we find that on the way home to Cybertron, Megatron as escaped being strapped to the Maximal ship. When our Maximal heroes arrived they are pursued by a whole army of Vehicon drones and can't transform. With the will of Primus, they have to believe they can transform to fight they way to freedom as they find out that Megatron has taken over the planet, extracted all Autobot sparks and put them in drone bodies.. Even close comrades they one knew..
With a now very religious Optimus Primal they find out Cybertron was once an organic planet with green life and foilage, upsetting many in the fandom with it's conclusion. But what the actual series really that bad?
What do you think?
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Post by Onix Solo on Aug 1, 2011 15:15:26 GMT -5
Good first topic, because I still hate Beast machines more than any series.
I am, as you all know, an avid Beast Wars fan. Everything I loved about Beast Wars still hangs with me to this day when I watch it. It had great characters. You had Optimus Primal, the captain of a science team turned leader in a war he didn't as for, but he takes up the mantel and becomes a great leader like his name sake. You have Cheetor, the rookie, eager to prove himself to those he idolizes and gets into trouble along the way to learn valuable lessons. On the other side, we have Megatron, a power hungry tyrant, but devious and cunning. Those and many of the other characters were the reason I woke up every morning at 6am before school to catch the newest episode of Beast Wars. Each episode was a fun adventure and you always had a laugh. Then it ended, and I was sad.
I waited eagerly as things started making their way out that Beast Machines, a new series that follows up Beast Wars, will be coming soon. It felt like forever, but it was finally here, more of my favorite characters, or so I though. This is the first of the many things I dislike about Beast Machines. Imagine my surprise as a child that my favorite transformers look nothing like they used to. The designs were awful. But even worse, my favorite characters personalities are now all dark and serious. Optimus Primal is now a hippy-zealot that is driven beyond crazy in his quest to make Cybertron organic (more on that later). Cheetor, who I admit wasn't too bad in a grander sense in BM, is now no longer the young, innocent guy that is trying to prove what he can do and that every boy my age related to but is now a serious character trying to break out into his own role as leader. Rattrap can't transform for so long, and when he does he looks awful. But the worst thing ever to my child mind at the time, was that Rhinox was not only a bad guy, but a bad guy by choice. There was also Nightscream, the Michael Jackson look-a-like..........
I stopped watching it as a kid. I was devastated. I hated the toys, I hated the show. You know you have a bad cartoon when a child doesn't like it. I was done with the show. It wasn't until high school that I sat down in front of my computer and watched the whole series. As a teenager, I still found it not to my liking. I could appreciate the more mature tones to an extent, but I still had those childhood attachments to these characters that were now nothing like I knew them.
On to the meat and potatoes of Beast Machines and it being bad, the whole grand story of returning Cybertron to it's organic state. As a kid, I barely knew what Cybetron was aside from being their home planet. That of course was quite different when I sat back down with Beast machines later on in life, and the concept that Cybertron was once organic was just stupid to me.
Then there was Megatron and his sudden disdain for his "organic" parts and trying to purge himself of them. I just found that lame. Transmetal 2's were stronger than other Cybertronians, and I don't think Megatron would quite care if he was a Dragon or not. Then, to top it off, his "perfect" solution for a new body is Optimal Optimus minus the gorilla mode?
Vehicons were not interesting enemies either. You liked watching the Predacons as much as the Maximals in Beast Wars. Even the Vehicons with minds weren't interesting.
There was just so much I didn't and still don't like about Beast Machines. Some of it is left over resentment from my first experience with it as a child, and others was its fiction altering ideas that took Transformers in a bad, unwanted direction. I like to just believe it never happened.......
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Post by Hoist on Aug 1, 2011 18:00:55 GMT -5
The new designs were scarily skinny and vastly different, but then some said the same about animated. There was also alot of hoo-has over the fact they seemed to morph for a transformation rather than "transform". That didn't really help the situation either.
I didn't mind Cheetor either but there was a great backlash against Rattrap not being able to transform and then getting his "wheels" when he did. I didn't really like OP's extremely preachy-ness or Nightscream either. However, I really loved Thrust, Jetstorm and Tankor. I can understand Megatron wanting to purge his organic because, if he was on that planet, he wouldn't of minded, but I think it's because he was back on Cybertron he wanted them purged and I can understand that.
The whole Cybertron being organic just didn't work for me. You can look at Cybertron as a barren asteroid Primus but his essence into after fighting Unicron, or the Sharkticons turning it into an industrial planet, depending on which history you prefer. The whole vegetation and plants on Cybertron was just silly for me. Overall I did think the story was good, as in a series arc, but it was vastly flawed with the techno-organic stuff and preachy prime.
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alphaprime1
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Old Skool Original
"The lesser of two evils... is still evil."
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Post by alphaprime1 on Aug 2, 2011 20:09:01 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the series, which I know puts me in the minority of TF fans worldwide. There were some aspects of the series I didn't care much for, but the same can be said about every single TF series ever created.
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Post by Neo Calrissian on Aug 3, 2011 16:09:08 GMT -5
I actually agree with AlphaPrime. I'm in the minority on this one. I can see alot of the stuff that went wrong with Beast Machines... but you've got to respect the positive aspects too. Cheetor may have been a darker character, but he wasn't going to remain a child forever; by the end of Beast Wars, he was already quite brooding and adolescent- having him step into leadership and adulthood was the logical next step. Yes, Rattrap's robot form was definitely a letdown (if you're going to hold back on revealing it, make it the most awesome of the bunch!), but he finally found his niche as the Maximal tech expert, where before the great extent of his character was comic relief. Blackarachnia's overarching story with Silverbolt was excellent in my opinion, and added a good deal of depth to an otherwise stereotypical 'bad girl' character. The corruption of Rhinox was, in my opinion, nothing short of brilliant. He was so likeable and I still regard him as my favorite Maximal, but that made his betrayal all the more heartbreaking and a genius bit of story telling. I also think it opened possibilities for other characters to grow- in the words of Cheetor, 'he wasn't just one of us, he was the best of us'. His loss left the team left a hole in their abilities and their friendships, forcing them all to adapt to a world without their best friend and their second-in-command. It also made your very last bit of sympathy for Megatron go too- gone was the 'Bond villain' persona of yore, replaced with a tyrannical psychopath who'd reprogrammed Rhinox and Silverbolt into villains, won (for a while at least) the never ending war between the Autobots and Decepticons, the first of his kind to do so, and would design an entire body based upon Optimus Primal's purely to spite him. Of course the designs are of the kind only a mother could love, and Optimus' tended to go a little over on the organic preaching. But it's not like it's the only series in Transformer history to have flaws. I think it took Transformers back to it's roots, with the heroes as a hopelessly outnumbered resistance who's only weapon is their massive conviction to their cause, and for that, I personally like Beast Machines a lot.
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Post by Onix Solo on Aug 3, 2011 16:17:54 GMT -5
I'd liked Beast Machines more had I not grown up with Beast Wars. Like I said, I can respect the more mature approach to the show, but they just changed so much that was my childhood that I couldn't love it no matter how hard I tried.
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Post by Highram on Aug 7, 2011 10:07:25 GMT -5
I've watched a fair bit of it now and I have to say that I really liked it despite some bits. I think Neo hit the nail on the head for me though so this is a little nit-picking really.... Cheetor to me became down right annoying in his whole "I know better than you" attitude that as a character reeeaaalllyyy needed some clearing up. Nightscream as well. Optimus became a terribly mundane leader though he did have his moments when he got angry with Cheetor. That saved him a little face me thinks. Rhinox's character was completely warped and distorded into something that didn't even make sense anymore. The only thing he had in common with the actual character was the voice really. The robot modes aren't...... my favourite parts but the fact they have to remain in beast mode most of the time is definitly preferable. Their beast designs are pretty cool. Story wise I actually found the in between episodes to be more entertaining than the main focus points. For example, the big battle of Megatron vs Optimus was more than cringe worthy what with Optimus continuely grunting like that. Erch. My favourite episode so far though has to be "The Catalyst". The Waspinator Cameo was just hilarous! I found the whole religous aspect of it rather tiresome and unnessesary as well as a character crusher. I have to say I actually LIKED that Ratrap couldn't transform seeing as that was kind of a way of delaying the total religious aspect. I do think that the basic idea is good but it could do with loosing some of the unnessesary trim round the edges. As with some things, they just went a little too overboard with controversial issues and that might have had something to do with peoples instant dislike of the series. But that's just my opinion.
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Post by Onix Solo on Aug 7, 2011 11:50:41 GMT -5
Great assessment there Highram! You've made very good points.
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Post by Speedy on Aug 7, 2011 13:08:39 GMT -5
Oooh... ok... my rememberance is a bit rusty, but let me hit on a couple points... And If i messed them up, sorry... it's been a while...
Rattrap- Being my favorite character (shocking, right?) I did not like how he went from explosives expert to straight hacker... yes, it was one of his skills, but i liked his wise-cracks about blowing stuff up! Plus the whole 'stunted growth' thing was annoying... TM 'Rat wit wheels' All the WAY! (despite my current profile pic...)
BlackArachnia- My sis's favorite character. I didn't mind her so much, the electro thing was kinda cool... the multiple eyes in 'bot mode' was a little creepy, but it kinda worked. Still preferred TM2 version, though...
Silverbolt- Was actually Jetstorm... Shocking... I actually thought the Ninja thing was kinda cool, I actually preferred BM Silverbolt because he wasn't a Fuzor (the only awesome one was TigerHawk!) Yeah, QuickStrike was ok, but a little... unhinged... Kudos on the continuance of the sense of honor.
Optimus- Can STILL fly and STILL fight... I found despite everything he was least affected... unsurprising... Ultimate TM FTW (Tank... Jet... Gorilla... Robot... WIN!)
'I am transformed'- Ok, now that I think about it... the religous metaphor was annoying *cough*Rattrap *cough* and it severly limited the heroes...
Cheetor- Really... after being made into the freakin awesome TM2... he still hasn't really grown up... 'Check me out!' The lightning moves, and twin swords were pretty cool though
NightScream- The survivor... Don't remember too much about him... other than he could fly... and needed to grow up a bit...
Botanica... Pretty sure I only saw maybe 1 episode with her in it... I want to say no opinion... but I didn't get the thing that was apparently between her and Rattrap...
Let me see... what else...
Noble/Savage- Supposedly the majority of Megatron's organic form... don't remember him/it too well...
Megatron- After the freakin awesome TM2 Dragon form... I thought his quest to purge the organinc from his system was... out there... The take-over/rewrite thing was a bit unbelievable, despite his advanced tech... I don't recall if they ever properly explained the techno-virus...
Technorganic- Based on the cartoon, Primus being Cybertron, the once organic is a bit far fetched... and the merge of organic and tech is a little out there... I'm not entirely sure I have an opinion on this...
I know there's more...
The Vehicon Generals...
Tankor- Actually Rhinox, twisted by Megatron... That was a surprise, actually... but yeah, it didn't quite make sense
Cycle (can't remember actual name...) actually being Waspinator... seeing the stripes on the tow, kinda gave it away... but hilarious when you found out...
Obsidian and Stryka- These were surprising as they were supposedly great generals... They basically replaced their respective counterparts (Jetstorm and Tankor)... although I don't remember them too much except for the double cross they did on the Maximals...
Can't think if there was anything else...
All in all, It was alright... I wish the creators had taken the time to actually watch the Beast Wars (if I remember correctly... they didn't...) It may have drastically changed the story.
I didn't particularly get most of the transformations... (they um... shifted?... parts didn't apparently move...) and yeah, most of the toys were meh... ( and just like with BW... I didn't get nearly as many as I wanted...)
I definitely wouldn't mind watching it again (to 'fill in the blanks') but I still wish they had done it differently...
Sorry for bouncing around a bit... that's how my mind kinda works...
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Post by Onix Solo on Aug 7, 2011 13:44:00 GMT -5
You've mostly got it down, except for Primal and Cheetor I think. Primal under went major character shifts into an incompetent, crazed and obsessed leader. Cheetor also had quite the maturity upgrade, turning more into the voice of reason (or more like a young adult rebelling against authority figures trying to find his own place in the world as his own boss).
Cheetor to me was the most solid character in the show, though thinks irked me about him. The rest just changed so much from their Beast Wars selves in a bad way. Silverbolt went from a hopelessly nobel and romantic knight, to a sulking, brooding samurai. Rattrap from super spy extraordinaire, to self doubting, cyberpuck hacker. The list continues.
If Beast machines stood on it own, without following up Beast wars, it doesn't do half bad, but it was the overlooking and overriding of Beast Wars that became the deep seeded resentment inside of me.
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Post by Neo Calrissian on Aug 7, 2011 16:52:28 GMT -5
That I agree on; as a stand alone series, it would be better. I like it and I don't think it deserves half the stick it gets, but against the massive legacy of Beast Wars, nothing was ever going to be exactly adored by the fans.
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Post by Speedy on Aug 7, 2011 22:42:31 GMT -5
I would have definitely seen it as different if it was standalone, but meh... I probably would have faved BlackArachnia LOL
Honestly, I wish it had been the same writers, etc
The plot was not bad, but I personally would have written things different
Like we know Megatron fell off the escape pod/thing from the Ark
But I would have gone with a more 'conventional' approach
He used his technology to 'upgrade' the Preds and re-start the war
and by the time that Primal and the crew returned, this resistance would have been gaining ground, and the Maximals would then use the tech that they brought back to upgrade themselves
I mean it all ultimately ends with the good guys winning, in some form or fashion, but I think (not that well versed on G1...) it would have been a sort of homage to the original
the only plot point (off the top of my head) I would have definitely kept would have been Obsidian and Stryka, because if they were supposed to be the generals they were, it would have helped the Pred 'resistance'
Just some thoughts
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Post by Hoist on Aug 8, 2011 7:44:09 GMT -5
I didn't mind Rattrap or Cheetor and personally I loved the Vehicons. What worked with the vehicons is the personalities, Tankor who just wanted to destroying everything, and him beeing Rhinox a very clever twist. Both Jetstorm and Thrust had great personalities as well which sold them as characters. Obsidian and Stryka - i can't really remember much about them, been a while since I watched the series. I think it was explained about Rhinox wasn't it? I know when they landed they were struck by something that made them revert to their previous forms before the upgrade. If Rhinox was captured (Can't remember the exact details), it would've been because of his slow old form, not exactly suitable for Cybertron. I thought it was a great twist because, not only did the Maximals have to face up that they lost a friend, but that their friend was now an enemy and there was no way they could turn him back... back to the good side [/star wars ] So in a sense they had lost him as a warrior, a comrade, it was almost as if he had died and they had to grieve for the fact they had lost him albeit to the other side.
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