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Post by Straight Edge on Jul 11, 2014 16:26:44 GMT -5
As much as I love the Transformers universe, it does show it's origins as a toy and kid's franchise. However, a few times in Prime and WFC, I feel like the larger implications of Cybertronian technology and biology were just brushed up against. In fact, the entire new Aligned universe seems to have done a good job at all around reconstruction of the setting's science, semi-mystical history, and culture.
Perhaps as a consequence of reading The Culture and Orion's Arm, I've just been looking at a lot of Cybertron and thinking,
"They should be A LOT further than they are!" I mean, for as long as they've been around and for their technology to be so advanced, they should have reached Singularity long by the time they get to Earth! Not that every Transformer should be Primus, but that the Primes themselves should not just be leaders, but a higher form of being altogether.
What about you guys? What do you see when you take the implications of the franchise and apply a bit more "upward" thinking to it?
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Post by Jazzman Crothers on Jul 11, 2014 21:18:22 GMT -5
Which classification of Singularity are you applying to Cybertronians?
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Post by Straight Edge on Jul 11, 2014 21:35:14 GMT -5
Which classification of Singularity are you applying to Cybertronians? Well, for instance, Vector Sigma. It's supposed to contain the collective knowledge of all Primes. Like a Holy external hardrive. Presumably, a single conventional Cybertronian brain could not hold all of that information. However, if Vector Sigma itself where to gain sentience, it would constitute a kind of Singularity The pooled knowledge, wisdom, and power of all Primes (including Optimus as of recently) in a single being. Given the highly morphic nature of Cybertron itself, it would not even be that difficult for Vector Sigma to incarnate himself. Either as a Leader mold, much like a Prime, or up to a Titan size like Metroplex. It would seem that the more physically powerful a given Transformer is, the more is sacrificed of their mind. Shockwave forcibly removed much of Grimlock's ability to speak and think clearly, but it made him into even more of a physical powerhouse. Metroplex, as well meaning as he is, doesn't appear to be very smart and requires tactical and strategic assistance when fighting. Imagine a being with all of Metroplex's power, but who is also smarter than any character in the franchise save Primus Himself! This is, of course, only one possible scenario.
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Post by Jazzman Crothers on Jul 11, 2014 22:35:51 GMT -5
Are you placing a more mechanical or technological classification of singularity on Cybertronians? I understand that your saying there exists a great amount of knowledge within an advanced race drenched in a high tech world, but what kind of singularity do you think the Transformers should have experienced by now?
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Post by Straight Edge on Jul 12, 2014 0:15:36 GMT -5
Are you placing a more mechanical or technological classification of singularity on Cybertronians? I understand that your saying there exists a great amount of knowledge within an advanced race drenched in a high tech world, but what kind of singularity do you think the Transformers should have experienced by now? Well a technological singularity would make the most sense, but not strictly. I just read something like Orion's Arm and then come back to this and it just seems the millenia old machine race are the ones who are behind.
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Post by Jazzman Crothers on Jul 12, 2014 1:44:50 GMT -5
Well I don't find it realistic to apply the concept of singularity to a this particular realm of sci-fi being that it is a franchise based on kids toys. And that the stories that back the toy in its various media weren't designed to incorporate a concept like singularity since once applied everything would change and Transformers just wouldn't be Transformers anymore. After all if we can't understand the superior intelligence of a race that is so far ahead of us then we couldn't relate to them, couldn't grasp there world and would be left behind in a confused state. While one could state that it doesn't make sense that there not further ahead of us in terms of knowledge, wisdom and intelligence, one could also state that many of the stories that come from the world of the Transformers do not make sense in realistic terms. Like Civil War for millions of years that hasn't killed every Cybertronian and destroyed Cybertron. Humans possess the power to destroy our planet within a day with it's nuclear arsenal. And I think it's safe to say that many of us will agree that Transformers are much more deadlier then humans when it comes to war.
But I believe that the various stories and myths that exist within the Transformers universe possess elements that could explain the delay of singularity. For one Cybertronians were created as warriors to go against Unicron. With their purpose decided by their God they were designed with limits which would slow down their progress to other things in life. Also they were fighting a Civil War that lasted for millions of years, leaving no time for the enlightenment of singularity when survival was the top priority. Plus much of that knowledge could of been lost due to the death and destruction caused by the Civil War. Now if you consider the series where Transformers were created by Quintessons in the original Television show or were Transformers were living in the caste-ridden social apartheid of Cybertronian society referred to as Functionism in the IDW comics, then you see Transformers being controlled and manipulated. Here we see Transformers being told what to do, who they were, what their lives were to be rather then participating in a growth of enlightenment initiated by wisdom and knowledge that had been gather by all that had come before them. As you can see here the Transformers have a history, no matter what series it is, where conflict in the main theme rather then sharing knowledge among themselves. And even when that knowledge is established, it is destroyed or lost some how.
Now I don't think that the definition of a Technological singularity, a hypothetical moment in time when artificial intelligence will have progressed to the point of a greater-than-human intelligence, can be applied to Transformers. I say this because artificial intelligence applies to the lifeless machines and computers of our reality. Transformers are living beings who can think and feel and are closer to being super robots rather then super computers. What I mean by super robots as opposed to super computers is that a Transformers is clearly a very advanced robot. But as for being a super computer, not all Transformers act like super computers. In different medias certain characters, even rather smart ones, have been known to forget simple facts like how me or you would in every day life. If Transformers actually do have super computers for brains, then like humans they are only using 10% of it and not taking full advantage of what they got. And it seems they are using it towards all the problems mentioned in the above paragraph, along with any other distractions Cybertron and the galaxy has to offer.
Now despite the lack of witnessing the experience of singularity occurring within the Transformer universe, and that goes for any series, there is one act that remain fairly consistence within all realms and that is death. Transformer life comes from Primus or from some other entity, like Vector Sigma or the Matrix, etc and so on, and is destined to return to where it began. And this is where I believe singularity for Transformers may actually occur. This is what could be meant by the phrase, 'Till all are One.' So back to what you said, "a single conventional Cybertronian brain could not hold all of that information", based the sheer size of it, or maybe based on how their brains work, or maybe based on how Primus or the Quintessons designed them with their own purposes. But perhaps its within the state of being dead that his knowledge can be shared between all rather then held by one. Thus achieving a form of singularity.
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Post by Straight Edge on Jul 12, 2014 2:03:14 GMT -5
Wonderfully put. I don't think a franchise's origins should limit what a creator can do with it, but you bring up excellent points. That Cybertronions, despite their decidedly NBE nature, are not artificial general intelligence as we would define or understand it.
Rather a kind of spiritual ascension is closer to what is likely, and I think that not only has precedence in the setting, but it's also very unexpected from a certain point of view. In that sense, this gives further justification as to why the Autobots, flawed as they may be post-retcon, are still in the right. The Autobot ideals of peace and freedom would allow the race to break from the cycle of violence and transcend their original function, while the Decepticons would keep them in violent, oppressive squalor.
Thanks. You've not only answered my question but also given Straight Edge his motivation for remaining an Autobot patriot. He sees the long term gains.
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